Log file opened at: 12/19/05 2:53:58 PM

      • Topic for #globalvoices: Conversations and arguments around the world, since October 26, 2004...
      • Topic for #globalvoices set by ethanz on Friday, December 16, 2005 8:25:51 AM
  1. globalvoices: ethanz sokari KevinMarks Catspaw metac0m sevrin _sj| GabeW rjhatl @ChanServ
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      • Channel Mode is +n
      • Channel created at Monday, August 8, 2005 2:57:20 AM
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   ethanz: hi gang
   el-oso: hi ethan, everyone
   ethanz: let's give everyone about five more minutes to show up

BorisAntho: 'llo :)

   ethanz: just listening to brendan greely's podcasts from our summit. they're pretty amazing
   ethanz: much better quality that anything Rebecca or I have ever done...
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   ethanz: okay, shall we get started?
   ethanz: David, you've got about three dozen things you wanted to bring up.
   ethanz: Do other folks have topics they want to make sure we address?
   el-oso: only if others are interested
   ethanz: They're good topics, David - and you get points for actually getting stuff up on the wiki...
   ethanz: Does anyone want to talk about the blogging ethics/anonymous blogging conversation that's been going on via email?
   ethanz: dead silence...
   ethanz: okay, oso, want to start us off?
           Catspaw clangs some cymbols together for ethanz.
   el-oso: I don't quite no what else to say other than the points I wrote - I'd be curious to hear what others think
   el-oso: If we need to start somewhere, maybe - do translators need to ask permission before translating a post?
   ethanz: one suggestion offered was talking to creative commons about a translation-compliant license
   ethanz: i.e., you're not licensed to use or make derivatives of a work, except to translate it...
   ethanz: but not everyone uses cc licenses, and they don't exist for all venues
   el-oso: I think that's a good long-term solution, but for now it's difficult enough to get bloggers to use CC at all (eg. do we even use it?) and I have people ready to start translating quality content
   ethanz: what do people think - in places where there aren't cc licenses, is it most appropriate to try to contact the author before translating?

BorisAntho: isn't that the right thing to do in any case, regardless of license?

   ethanz: I think so - is that a major barrier for translators, David?

BorisAntho: also translation is like 90% interpretation... that's a derivative work if you ask me ;)

   el-oso: only when there is no contact info which I would say is about 25% of the time
   ethanz: I'd be comfortable with a "make an effort to contact the author" rule
   ethanz: but does that mean we give up translating the 25% where there's no contact info?
   ethanz: Can we encourage people to leave comments for authors asking for permission to translate, and perhaps asking authors to put up a policy about whether or not they allow translation?

BorisAntho: i think that's reasonable. no?

   el-oso: definitely. Does anyone want to take on getting in touch with CC about a translating license?
   ethanz: I can drop a line to Lessig, if you'd like
   el-oso: that would be great
   ethanz: cool - I'll make it a to do
   ethanz: do we want to go on to the disclosure issue?

BorisAntho: to do: get though my to do list.

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   el-oso: sup jdog

JelloWorld: I'm ja' lurking. JelloWorld: 'sup y'all.

   ethanz: hey jello
   ethanz: oso, want to frame the disclosure issue?
   el-oso: the Whole Food CEO did it much better, but basically full financial disclosure creates a more open, honest, fair, and productive environment for all involved

JelloWorld: (and protects you from lawsuits!) KevinMarks: surely you cna just use a takedown on demand model for translation

   ethanz: kevin - that's one way to go... but we're worried about antagonizing users we're pointing to
   ethanz: the question is whether an ask first standard works better for this community than a takedown standard...

KevinMarks: well, we haev the same issue with indexing KevinMarks: no KevinMarks: thats a chilling effect

   ethanz: oso - on the disclosure issue - 
   ethanz: we're certainly able to disclose where all GV funding is coming from - there's only three funders so far
   ethanz: and we've announced them pretty prominently on the site

BorisAntho: "ask first. if the source cannot be contacted, and the info is very desireable, translate it, post it.. and keep a takedown on request policy in effect."

   ethanz: the one that's been slightly hidden is ebay, which funded the december conference for berkman and passed a very small amount of funding on to us
   ethanz: Boris - sounds like a workable standard to me

KevinMarks: problem wiht ask first it it introduces a delay while you wit for a response

   ethanz: on disclosure - what do we do about personal disclosure on the basis of editors and contributors...

BorisAntho: it's reasonable and balanced and covers bases. KevinMarks: whihc will mean it doesn't get done BorisAntho: KevinMarks: this is editorial process. we aren't doing spidering/indexing. KevinMarks: I'd suggest an 'inform and offer a veto' ratehr than 'ask permission and wait for response' KevinMarks: I know

   ethanz: I think inform and veto could be workable - I'm planning on translating your post - let me know if you don't want me to do this
   el-oso: ethanz - I think that is the sensitive/controversial part - I am for open disclosure of who gets paid what, including conference expenses, etc, but others might not feel comfortable?
   ethanz: jello, you're the lwayer - is this a bad idea?

JelloWorld: no, unless you've signed confidentiality BorisAntho: yeah that sounds good too :) BorisAntho: (inform & "veto")

   ethanz: sorry, sequencing issues - was actually asking your thoughts on inform and veto, Joel...
   ethanz: back to disclosure in a moment...

JelloWorld: I joined this late: do you mean people posting stuff without permission? BorisAntho: status quo ante bellum... ;) JelloWorld: oh, translation.

   ethanz: someone posts in spanish. i want to post a translation
   ethanz: do I ask permission and wait for an answer before translating
   ethanz: or do I let them know I plan to translate and give them a chance to veto, as KevinM suggests...

JelloWorld: I'd have to check. Off the top of my head, clearly safer to ask first. But ask first and veto is probably good too, the problem there is that other side could say they never got the "ask" and thus never the opp to turn down. KevinMarks: well, you can have a post-hoc takedown for that JelloWorld: I believe a translation is technically a derivative work, and infringes copyright owner. BorisAntho: the former is just subtly different from the latter, but does allow the editorial process to actually move forward without delay... the cost of losing, say 10% of requests is probably worth the time saved by just going ahead in every case...

   ethanz: right - we're agreed that optimal solution is a cc license enabling translation
   ethanz: or a special license specifically for translation

JelloWorld: possibly still actionable anyway. Copyright statute has some statutory damages for some cases. It's real complicated, though, so like I said I'd have to check. But isn't this just academic? Who'd sue us for translating, really?

   el-oso: For now I am going to only offer posts to the translating group whose authors offered permission and maybe we can revisit this down the road?

KevinMarks: you need to make process so the normal case is the smoothest

   el-oso: (the best posts usually come from well established bloggers with contact info)
   el-oso: Does that sound like safe policy for now?
   ethanz: oso - for now, let's go for bloggers who have contact info, and suggest we contact, ask permission, and see what percent of people say yes
   el-oso: sounds good - I'll keep track

BorisAntho: exploration before policy making

   ethanz: lets us get a sense for how long a response takes and whether people move to a policy where they explicitly allow translation
   ethanz: and I'll contact lessig on the translation license issue...
   ethanz: on to disclosure
   el-oso: sounds good - if anyone knows spanish to english translators, please send them my way
   ethanz: my worry, David, is that disclosing where our money goes to is a bit more awkward than disclosing where it comes from...
   ethanz: are you proposing an open-book operation?
   el-oso: yes

nathanhamm: ethanz, you're right. I'd suggest we do no more than a 501(c)3 does.

      • Signoff: nehavish (Excess Flood)
   ethanz: it's an interesting idea - we haven't been shy about telling people what reg. editors get paid, for instance

JelloWorld: 501(c)(3) is open-book though. Everything sent to IRS is public record and demandable. nathanhamm: Not individual salaries and individual program expenses. JelloWorld: I believe they are.

   el-oso: may I ask what the cons of open-book operation are?

JelloWorld: Not employees, but definitely high-ups. nathanhamm: Well, FWIW, I was never able to access information in that detail.

   ethanz: nope - 501c3 requires disclosure of board member salaries and highest paid employees
   ethanz: it's available on 990 forms
   ethanz: but you don't get info for rank and file, for instance...

JelloWorld: Nathanhamm, you've got the right to, you know.

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   ethanz: oso - my worry on open book is endless debates about who does and doesn't get funding to come to events like London on our tab
   ethanz: how did we decide who to fund and who not to fund?

JelloWorld: (ethanz: you're right. I'm applying for 501(c)(3) for someone this week) BorisAntho: the bureaucracy that strangles socialism. :\ nathanhamm: Well, when I worked on them at my last job, I didn't, for example, have to disclose my salary. It wasn't high enough. We disclosed employee costs, but not everyone's salaries.

   ethanz: (jello - I did all the legal and accounting on my ngo for 5 years... :-)

JelloWorld: (isn't it HELL?)

   el-oso: my argument is that it's a good debate to have
   el-oso: in the end, the leadership still makes the decision, they just make it in the open
   ethanz: (indeed, it sucks. and it never ends., the org is two years dead and I'm still filing 990s...)

nathanhamm: Oso, my take on it is that you don't need to go too far on this, and most people are worried about where the money's coming from.

   ethanz: I think it's a really interesting question - I don't think we can decide it without Rebecca's input, but I'm not flat out opposed to an open book org...

nathanhamm: At my last job, the annual report was good enough for most people. It grouped donors by amount without necessarily disclosing the amount they gave. JelloWorld: (yeah don't know why this org wants me to do it for them)

   el-oso: I would only be comfortable doing this if everyone involved was comfortable, but I would like to set up a wiki page listing the pros and cons of open verus closed-book. Is that ok with everyone?
   ethanz: so... an interesting thing... GV is not a legal entity... hence, no annual reports.

JelloWorld: WHAT!!!?

   ethanz: any disclosure we do is by choice, but that doesn't mean we couldn't choose to do lots and lots of disclosure

JelloWorld: (Just kidding.) nathanhamm: We could do them anyway.

   ethanz: and probably should..
   ethanz: oso, I like the idea of the wiki page - will you fire that up
   ethanz: ?
   el-oso: firing

JelloWorld: won't you have to pay taxes on reuters, file W-2s for the new managing Ed, blah blah blah?

   ethanz: yes and no

JelloWorld: I meant reuters contrib.

   ethanz: BERKMAN will have to
   ethanz: and will report whatever way they do so
   ethanz: which is probably buried in Harvard's annual reports
   ethanz: not exactly transparent
   ethanz: the money from Reuters comes as an unrestricted gift to Berkman, with an implicit understanding that it supports GV

JelloWorld: This is all interesting actually. I know of other orgs "buried in Harvard's reports." wink, wink.

   ethanz: at some point, we may choose to become our own 501c3. but so far,. it's been very hard to say no to having berkman continue to do the admin crap
   ethanz: but none of that means we can't hold our project to a (much) higher standard of disclosure

JelloWorld: indeed, I wish we were all as lucky. Will they do my taxes, too?

   el-oso: do we have some sort of agreement on disclosing where our money comes from and how much it is?
   ethanz: I think our agreement so far has been full disclosure
   ethanz: the money so far has come from macarthur and reuters, who are both thanked on the front page
   ethanz: we could go further and provide a faq page with more info on amounts, etc.
   el-oso: but we don't say how much - that could be $100 or 1 million.
   el-oso: and we don't point out that we are not obligated to do anything in return for their contributions
   ethanz: basically, it sounds like there are two big transparency questions on the table:
   ethanz: to what extent do we detail the amounts of funding we're getting from foundations and corporations and what, if any, strings are attached?
   ethanz: and do we decide to disclose, in some fashion, how that money gets spent?

BorisAntho: i think a) is fine and makes sense, but I fail to see the benefit in doing b)

   el-oso: I will argue the benefit here -

KevinMarks: well b) may encourage others to contribute

   ethanz: cool - let's move this discussion onto the wiki. I also want to make sure RMack has a strong voice here - I don't really know where she stands on this issue...
   ethanz: Oso, you had two other points - about "things we like" and media
   el-oso: yes - it seems like some updating is in order
   ethanz: I've never understood "things we like" - I blame Rmack... I think it was our way of trying to deal with reciprocal link requests

BorisAntho: hehehehe

   el-oso: I make a motion to destroy
   ethanz: what's in the section now>
   ethanz: ?

JelloWorld: I bang my shoe on the table for no particular reason. BorisAntho: # BorisAntho: Stuff We Like BorisAntho: * Civiblog Free blog hosting for global civil society organizations BorisAntho: * Blogsome Free blog hosting on a wordpress server BorisAntho: * WordPress Free open source blogging tool BorisAntho: * Ourmedia get your content hosted for free BorisAntho: * Techsoup resources for nonprofits BorisAntho: * iPodder Free cross-platform podcast receiver BorisAntho: * Fire Ant Free video search & download BorisAntho: ugh. sorry

   ethanz: One possibility would be to tuirn the section into "partners"

BorisAntho: we have partners?

   ethanz: there's a whole set of orgs we work closely with, like RSF, who we probably want to list

JelloWorld: Ourmedia...I notice some of our blogger/contribs use YouTube. Isthere a particular reason why we recommended one over the other?

   ethanz: and we're basically endorsing wordpress and blogsome...

BorisAntho: my only issue really with this list, and actually at this point the entire far-right column, is the fact that it is repeated site wide and is just terribly cluttered and cluttering and spacing munching and resources crunching...

   ethanz: jello, I really think it's likely because ourmedia emailed rebecca and she felt like linking to it...
   ethanz: to her credit, she actually responds to those sorts of request, which I basically ignore
   ethanz: but this may be another place where we're big and srious enough is to think about whether we want/need to do this, and if so, how to do it transparently and democratically

BorisAntho: i second the motion to destroy. ;)

   ethanz: whoa - motion tabled until RMack gets her say
   ethanz: but I agree - we need to seriously think about whether this goes or stays in a version 2.1 of the site

BorisAntho: for sure for sure

   el-oso: B&D: The Destroyers

JelloWorld: parliamentary insurgency thwarted. BorisAntho: rowr

   ethanz: as for the media archive page - I'd urge everyone to get this one up to date
   ethanz: if we get mentioned and you find it, please add it to the apge
   ethanz: do people have write permissions for it?
   el-oso: can we edit the page?
   ethanz: well, I can, as it's owned by me...

JelloWorld: Shouldn't the far-right side be like a blogger tool-kit? I've kinda thought of it as such, e.g. you're in Lagos and want to know how to start generating your own content, etc., etc. where do you host, what platforms, blah blah blah.

   ethanz: boris, is there a good way to make a page on gv editable by all authors?

JelloWorld: It's just so static right now.

   ethanz: jello - I've got a Workshop page on the wiki which is pretty similar to that

JelloWorld: but it could be the outreach section.

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   ethanz: but I don't disagree - I think there's a good right column conversation to be had about GV 2.1...
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JelloWorld: there's nothing like the front page, though. You lose half the people below the fold.

   el-oso: agreed
   el-oso: I think a list of recent posts and comments would be more effective than "things we like"
ethanz: one thing that would be great in the right column would be a link to a page called "start blogging" which lists platforms, tools. advice

BorisAntho: JelloWorld: agreed.. the far right column is totally being misused rightnow. chalk it up to GV slowly transitioning from being a just weblog (or merely just shoehorned into a weblog CMS) to becoming everything we want it to be... ;)

   ethanz: oso, I think we're all with you that things we like is imperfect
   ethanz: I just want to give its creator a fair say
   ethanz: because she'll beat me if I don't
   el-oso: word. what about "girls oso likes"?

BorisAntho: ethanz: u did read my email the other day where I spoke of some ideas about all this... ? ;)

   ethanz: "read" is a strong word, boris. I am aware that such an email exists... :-)

BorisAntho: el-oso: that list would be far far too long no? BorisAntho: ethanz: hah. ;)

   el-oso: yes

JelloWorld: this isn't a democracy. it's a cheerocracy! ;)

 nehavish: (is overwhelmed just listening to all this)
   ethanz: guys, as an interim solution on the media archive thing, want to send me recent media mentions...
   el-oso: neha! you're alive
   ethanz: hey neha, we were worried that the cat had gotten your tongue...
           BorisAnthony checks flights to San Diego in hopes of helping poor david with his interminable list...

JelloWorld: you kept phasing in and out. It was kinda cool, actually. Like you weren't solid-state.

   ethanz: kinda like in star trek when the teleporter doesn't work...
 nehavish: has been alive all along - you guys have been doing the breathless talk deal!

BorisAntho: and your bits get phased all over the galaxy? not fo rme. I hate those things.

   ethanz: " I teleported home last night with ron and sid and meg. Ron stole meggie's heart away, and I got sidney's let" - douglas adams
   el-oso: so, whatchya thinking about these days Neha?
 nehavish: see see - you guys start doing this code language bit.. and except for DNA - I don't understand... Geeks.. Ma.. Geeks
   ethanz: okay, on media mentions - would folks please email them to me and I'll get them added to the page...

JelloWorld: (oso, says, trying hard NOT to look like the geek he is) JelloWorld: ;)

   el-oso: come on jelly roll, i'm geek and proud
 nehavish: Oso - I am thinking of quitting my awful job - That's a whole different story - Once I quit.. I'll do a nice post out of it!

BorisAntho: there are few rushes like the rush of quitting a job you hate...

   el-oso: My cafe is hiring :) I'm gonna recruit boris
 nehavish: Nobody wants to recruit me! :(
   ethanz: neha - very cool! 
   ethanz: (about quitting)
 nehavish: Okay - quick thoughts.. on the issue of transparency
   ethanz: not about no one hiring you... that's too bad
 nehavish: Where money comes from.. cool enough.. when you want to tell ppl - you'll discover most aren't intersted

BorisAntho: el-oso: i can get a cheap flight to socal for mid jan...

 nehavish: Ppl are interested in sources of money as long as you don't want to tell them or they think you don't want to tell them
   el-oso: boris and neha - come make lattes with me. so neha, you're for full transparency but don't really care either way?
 nehavish: As for where the money goes - It's a bit irrelevant - but if it is necessary - it can be broken to big heads.. if we don't want to get into details..
 nehavish: Break into heads and put a footnote about an open door policy - i.e. if you want to know - just mail us . and we'll send you a pretty excel sheet that'll eat half your ass

BorisAntho: !!!

   ethanz: oso, would a "funding breakdown sheet" work for you?
 nehavish: Break into heads - as in Financial Overheads heads
   ethanz: right now it basically says - 65% of funds - regional editors. 20% boris. remainder - caviar and champagne for Ethan and Rebecca...
   el-oso: that seems to be a nice compromise
   el-oso: I think Joel and I might put in a bid for 5% on regional editor sushi dinners
 nehavish: You could put that in the About Section .. so it becomes a part of 'Funding'

JelloWorld: indeed.

   ethanz: (I'm joking about all percentages. My point was simply that there aren't many secrets in the budget at present...)

nathanhamm: See page 12 of the following link to see what I'm thinking is more than enough. Your thougths oso?

 nehavish: exactly ethan - sowe could just put in a few lines about broad percentages..  say xy% for REs and ew% for this - And if you'd like to know more - please mail us
 nehavish: Even ppl who maintain complete transparency are not required towear financial statements like bathing robes around them all the time..
 nehavish: Financial transparency is still solicited information - unless it's in an annual report

JelloWorld: the thing about disclosures is that it's an ongoing obligation. You need to keep those up to date and if GVO gets more complicated, that gets more complicated...and then the big heads who actually read the stuff get peeved that we had promised full disclosure but didn' just can't make everyone happy.

   ethanz: I think we can do that, neha, but I do think we need to be sensitive to the fact that people can do math and can figure out me salaries, what we're paying for tech and graphic design, etc. The question is just how transparent we want to be and how everyone feels about having that info out in the open...

JelloWorld: not enough disclosure, too much disclosure. JelloWorld: anyway I'm for half-transparent.

   el-oso: Nathan - that looks about right to me
   el-oso: It looks like I'm the only one for full transparency - I think we are gonna be able to come up with a good compromise though

nathanhamm: That's essentially identical to what we provided, and was more than enough for most people. Actually, the fundraising disclosures on the following pages are good too.

   sokari: i go with oso on full transparency
   el-oso: sokari's alive too! un abrazo sokari

nathanhamm: Do you consider that NYcares thing full disclosure, oso? Cause I don't.

 nehavish: full transparency is always a dicey thing.. mostly because there's always something else that can be disclosed
   el-oso: No, I don't, but it's reasonable
   sokari: yea just about:)
   ethanz: let's figure out how best to move this debate forward. we can't settle the issue here without all participants present...
   ethanz: do we want to put a couple of proposals together on the wiki and then discuss
   ethanz: then vote? or try to reach consensus?
   sokari: at the very least i would like to know where the money is coming from
 nehavish: I think we should get on the wiki - thrash it out - see what Rmack has to say and then go ahead and decide
   ethanz: I think there's no debate that we're willing to be 100% transparent on where the money is coming from
   ethanz: if there's strong demand for actual hard numbers on funding coming in, I suspect we can work through that
   ethanz: what gets me a little nervous is printing people's salaries...
   sokari: yes agree on that
   sokari: dont want to go to jail

nathanhamm: ethanz, that's why I'm all about how they do it on page 12 of that pdf I linked. nathanhamm: if we'd even go that far.

   ethanz: cool - let's put a couple of proposals on the wiki, including the method nathan's referring to, and let rmack and others weigh in on the issue
   ethanz: we can then decide if we vote or look for consensus...
   ethanz: are there other issues we want to cover? Sokari, Neha, want to get some more words in on the issues from earlier in the session?
   sokari: My head hurts!
   sokari: all ok
   ethanz: to summarize a few things decided:
 nehavish: about the third column - I think it's a bit redundant
 nehavish: It could go in as a footerboard or something.. give us more space .. less cluttered

BorisAntho: nehavish: totally agreed :)

 nehavish: :D
   ethanz: - there's real debate on the future of the third column. I think we need Boris to do some thinking about alternative uses for that real estate. And we need to raise the issue - with Rebecca and others - whether or not we want to continue doing the "stuff we like" section
   ethanz: - we need to update our media mentions page. if you've got mentions, please send the links to me and I'll update the page
 nehavish: It's not even necessary to have a third column anyway.. It just makes real estate more scarce.. and the font inconvenient
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 nehavish: at some point in time - it would be nice to think about accessibility issues and our blog

BorisAntho: speak of the devil..

    RMacK: :-)

JelloWorld: :0

   ethanz: - we've got an ongoing dialog on transparency. for now, we're putting together proposals on the wiki, heading towards a future discussion on whether we disclose where money goes, not just where it comes from
   el-oso: :)
    RMacK: connectivity issues here. greetings.
 nehavish: greetings Rmack
   ethanz: - on translation, we're trying the process of asking people to alert authors before we translate. if this proves to be onerous, we'll re-evaluate

JelloWorld: You see what happens when you mentioned She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. ;)

 nehavish: I know that ppl with disabilities do try and access our site - and I'd like to see it made more accessable for them
   ethanz: long conversation so far, rmack - will need to send you the transcript
   ethanz: just put up four summary bullet points
   ethanz: neha - that's a great conversation to have with boris
    RMacK: wow. long conversation over the last 15 mins?

BorisAntho: already doing that in PM :)

   ethanz: uh, hour and 15, rmack
   ethanz: having some time zone issues, huh?
    RMacK: oh. i thought we started at 4pm
    RMacK: the usual time?
    RMacK: isnt that when we normally start, xcept last time?
    RMacK: anyway never mind
   ethanz: hmm. everyone showed up at three, which I assumed was the new time
   el-oso: Ah, maybe that's why Haitham's not here - we've been going back and forth between 3 and 4 as "the usual time"
    RMacK: oh
    RMacK: aha
   ethanz: although in that case, we'd probably see haitham fifteen minutes ago
   ethanz: perhaps this is another topic for discussion - are we now meeting at 3 or 4. I had assumed 3.

Log file closed at: 12/19/05 4:17:12 PM


YOU (RMacK) have joined #globalvoices =-= Topic for #globalvoices is “Conversations and arguments around the world, since October 26, 2004...” =-= Topic for #globalvoices was set by ethanz on Friday, December 16, 2005 8:25:51 AM [INFO] This channel requires that you have registered and identified yourself with the network's nickname registration services (e.g. NickServ). Please see the documentation of this network's nickname registration services that should be found in the MOTD (/motd to display it). nehavish at some point in time - it would be nice to think about accessibility issues and our blog BorisAnthony speak of the devil.. RMacK :-) JelloWorld :0 ethanz - we've got an ongoing dialog on transparency. for now, we're putting together proposals on the wiki, heading towards a future discussion on whether we disclose where money goes, not just where it comes from el-oso :) RMacK connectivity issues here. greetings. nehavish greetings Rmack ethanz - on translation, we're trying the process of asking people to alert authors before we translate. if this proves to be onerous, we'll re-evaluate JelloWorld You see what happens when you mentioned She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. ;) nehavish I know that ppl with disabilities do try and access our site - and I'd like to see it made more accessable for them ethanz long conversation so far, rmack - will need to send you the transcript ethanz just put up four summary bullet points ethanz neha - that's a great conversation to have with boris RMacK wow. long conversation over the last 15 mins? BorisAnthony already doing that in PM :) ethanz uh, hour and 15, rmack ethanz having some time zone issues, huh? RMacK oh. i thought we started at 4pm RMacK the usual time? RMacK isnt that when we normally start, xcept last time? RMacK anyway never mind ethanz hmm. everyone showed up at three, which I assumed was the new time RMacK oh el-oso Ah, maybe that's why Haitham's not here - we've been going back and forth between 3 and 4 as "the usual time" RMacK aha ethanz although in that case, we'd probably see haitham fifteen minutes ago ethanz perhaps this is another topic for discussion - are we now meeting at 3 or 4. I had assumed 3. RMacK i had assumed 4, and that the last time was the exception. RMacK but if poeple want to move back to 3, fine w/ me nathanhamm Starting next month, 4 is going to be all but impossible for me at least. el-oso 3 then? RMacK ok. so is everybody else cool w/ 3? JelloWorld OK sokari ok# RMacK i see haitham was just on yahoo im.. RMacK maybe he didnt realize we had an irc? BorisAnthony seems to rememebr an email on the list which stated 3pm was today's meeting time... ;) RMacK my connectivity has been shaky until just now RMacK anyway, please don't let me interrupt. RMacK sounds like a good discussion in sway.. based on what I just caught of ethan's remarks RMacK demands for greater transparency on funding? el-oso we're trying to move it to the wiki - RMacK gotcha RMacK makes sense RMacK if we knew how much money we were actually going to get and how it will actually be spent, that would of course be useful.. RMacK did you guys already discuss whether you guys all feel comfortable having your pay disclosed? el-oso I think that's probably the point of contention - I'm pretty sure I'm the only one arguing for full disclosure RMacK aha. BorisAnthony and have yet to fully disclose why you think it's such a good idea, sir. ;) RMacK hehe RMacK i really wonder if you guys really want the public picking apart exactly how much you get paid and discussing in detail whether you deserve it... nehavish Stop whining David.. Am pretty much for total transp. as well! :D BorisAnthony *cough* el-oso thx neha ;) nehavish But RMack has a point - I'd like to see some interesting posts come up who do a ratio analysis of how many blogs David and Neha each read.. and what their average blog reading amount comes to BorisAnthony and then cross check that with any stipulations in their contract agreement... BorisAnthony :p RMacK hehe RMacK yes, then we will have to fully disclose the job description etc. BorisAnthony like I said, the bureaucracy that stiffles the dream of socialism. sadly... nehavish :) wow - I can just imagine the email flood RMacK and if we want to make it fully open, the public can vote on who deserves what pay depending... RMacK on popularly perceived performance... el-oso i think these are good points that we should get on the wiki nehavish My god.. this is dangerously close to Bonus Appraisal.. RMacK sounds like a nightmare to me JelloWorld interesting idea: readers decide how much you're worth. BorisAnthony has flashbacks of every russian existentialist novel he has ever read... nehavish Maybe we'll get brownie points for the number of times we get flamed RMacK in which case we might as well have people voting for what goes on the blog too.. RMacK (getting carried away..) nathanhamm it is a nightmare. JelloWorld Man those Bhutanese owe you big time Neha nehavish I am getting nightmares of Wall Street! Forget Stalin.. BorisAnthony hello my name is igor. .I awoke this mornign to find I had been metamorphosed into a giant beetle. RMacK hehe JelloWorld (why is it Bhutanese & not bhutani? e.g. Afghani v. afghanese?) nehavish Don't let the Bhutanese hear that Nathan.. I am having enough trouble as it is.. I wish I could give up on all nationalities el-oso do you guys have 5 minutes for me to explain the roots of my financial transparency question? RMacK sure nehavish Because Afghani is within Pashto.. It isn't alien to hte language.. as opposed to the English language creation of Bhutanese BorisAnthony you've recently become a card carrying communist? ;) RMacK go ahead oso nehavish shoot oso RMacK :-) BorisAnthony (low blow, apologies... ) el-oso The managing editor position will be expected to perform certain duties and will be paid a full time salary el-oso we will also be expected to perform certain duties with much much smaller pay el-oso and I want the transition of our "structure" to be as friendly and smooth as possible RMacK makes sense. RMacK i think we should definitely be open and clear w/ the regional editors about what's happening el-oso we already have a sense of community as regional editors and we work well because we're all "working for less than we're worth" BorisAnthony can you clarify how you see full disclosure providing that smoothness? BorisAnthony (i am not opposed per se.. just don't see it yet...) RMacK note: all of you are welcome to apply for m.e. job, but none of you have. el-oso well, i was very convinced by this article that I will post to the wiki that by keeping that stuff in the open - "employees" will be happier and wages will be more fair BorisAnthony i was very convinced how much I hated my last job when I was shown an excel spreadsheet of how much people were getting paid... RMacK do you feel that there is a difference between being open amongst the employees and being directly open to the public at large? Not that anything is ever secret, but.. BorisAnthony (and I was on the upper echelons myself...) |<-- ethanz has left (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) el-oso I guess I will also disclose that I am hesitantly contemplating the idea of applying for the position, but would think that more money should go to regional editors and perhaps less to the managing editor RMacK we are trying to get more money for regional editors RMacK i'm afraid at the moment the only funds definitely approved are those that would go towards a full time m.e. RMacK it is unfortunate but a reality with the reuters thing at this point that funds are being agreed to in a rather piecemeal fashion el-oso I do feel like public transparency creates a sense of trust and confidence in the community at large RMacK we are trying not to make promises we cant keep RMacK part of the thing also is that since some regional editors have full time jobs/studies, some are able to take more time with the job and some just don't seem to have the time BorisAnthony but David you are conscious of the difference here... the managing editor is a full time position... the regional eds are paid volunteers. I do not, by saying that, mean to reduce in any way the work you guys do and the time you invest... and if I'm wrong in what I just said please correct me.. but there is a substantial difference there... if anything should be smoothed it is that no? or? dunno.. RMacK so we should probably sort that out as well at some point, enabling those who want to do more to get paid more, and those who cant do more get paid less el-oso I don't know, I just wanted to explain my thinking a little more so we don't lose the community and collaboration we've got going el-oso RMack - exactly - that was my point - thinking towards the future RMacK i think what i'm reading into this is that people are feeling underpaid for the work theyre doing. RMacK and to be frank, we are all underpaid. RMacK the m.e. salary is yet to be determined but we are budgeting more than what either i or ethan are getting. el-oso we do this for the love, I think it's inequality that worries me more than low pay RMacK so let's talk more about how we can prevent the feeling of inequality JelloWorld I don't feel underpaid. But I'm also one of the busy ones. sokari yes but do u know how much the me is going to get before we talk about inequality? sokari we r all doing this for love as you say sokari anyway RMacK the m.e.'s salary is yet to be determined... RMacK tho it needs to be enough to support a full time adult with the very specific experience we are requiring el-oso I personally would not feel comfortable making five times the salary of a regional editor, for example, when not doing five times the amount of work el-oso and, vise-versa RMacK makes sense RMacK you know what would be really useful? RMacK maybe we should have a wiki page somewhere where you guys document in a fair amount of detail exactly how much time you guys spend per day on what RMacK then we will be in a better position to determine whether the m.e.'s job and the regeds job are way imbalanced JelloWorld great idea! I'm curious myself. More because I wonder how efficient I'm being, and seeing how much time other spend will give me a better benchmark. sokari we would have to average it out as its not the same on a daily basis el-oso that's so hard to say - spending time reading Latin American weblogs is something I do GV-regardless RMacK very true. RMacK which is why if a person logs a couple of weeks' worth of their GV work, the average emerges RMacK (answering sokari) sokari in fact reading takes up agood chunk of time sokari and i hate people that write essays on every post RMacK it is a question because some people are reading their regions' blogs as part of other work or other blogging nathanhamm sokari, i hea you! nathanhamm hear, rather RMacK and others are doing it more exclusively for gv sokari also some people are good at speed reading others not BorisAnthony it would be good to also outline what the m.e. does that is different from the r.e., what level of experience and background they have, etc... sokari i am so thats ok sokari but how can u compare different reading writing typing speeds RMacK boris, very true. sokari as they all come into play RMacK and sokari, very true. BorisAnthony me != re sokari i type fast sokari and read too but others may not RMacK i dont think we're talking about making a direct and harsh comparison between how much time people take and how efficient they are. BorisAnthony m.e. != r.e. (i meant) el-oso All of a sudden I feel like I've unleashed something that shouldn't have been. I guess I'm a little Stalinist about fairness. RMacK but it sounds like it might be useful to have some documentation of what your jobs entail, so that the m.e. will be better able to work with you. BorisAnthony el-oso: it's all about balance. :) nathanhamm You know, oso, there were massive inequalities in the Stalinist system :) RMacK hehe, nathan RMacK thats for sure!! RMacK :-) |<-- nehavish has left (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) el-oso I definitely do. RMacK anyway i think its good oso raised this. RMacK sorry to see that ethan seems to have dropped off. JelloWorld I don't understand all the commie references. Open disclosure != communism. Isn't that why we had Kremlinologists? sokari need to go - walk the dog feed the cat etc bye el-oso bye sokari BorisAnthony i say we quietly scuttle the issue and hope el-oso mysteriously disappears... |<-- sokari has left ("Chatzilla [Firefox 1.0.7/20050919]") BorisAnthony ;) el-oso :) RMacK ok bye sokari RMacK i guess i'll get ethan to send me the transcript from the rest of the meeting BorisAnthony JelloWorld: i thinkt he key is that transparency, while not a bad thing in itself, when applied too ... enthousiastically, seems to have the exact opposite effect the one pushing for it hope for. RMacK i think its good people are asking questions. BorisAnthony definitly. RMacK and its good that we must strive to be as fair as possible RMacK i hope anybody who is iinterested in the m.e. job applies soon RMacK we're getting a lot of apps el-oso Ethan had a good summary of the IRC chat going - maybe he can email it to us? I'm starting to get really hungry. RMacK ok cool RMacK i'll ask him to email. el-oso alright, oso ducks out. joel and nathan - I hope we get to meet soon. B & Rmack was great to see you in London. take care guys |<-- el-oso has left () JelloWorld ready to narrow the field? JelloWorld or still accepting? RMacK still accepting RMacK will start getting ready to narrow field as soon as ethan and i get all our book chapters in :-) RMacK if people want to do an IRC just to discuss the job i'm happy to do that RMacK i'm sensing that might not be a bad idea JelloWorld Tell us when it's on. OK, then should go too. Investment company regulation calls. see y'all. RMacK fun fun |<-- JelloWorld has left ("Chatzilla [Firefox 1.5/undefined]")

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